hondaboy4life
05-10-2009, 06:50 PM
Although there are many different models of j series motors out there, only a select few have transmissions we can use. (This is manual transmission specific).
There are three cars that came with manual transmissions that we can use on the pre-2008 j series motors that can be swapped into the older honda/acura chassis.
Here they are:
2003 Acura CL type-s
2004-2006 Acura TL
2007-2008 Acura TL type-s
2003-2007 Honda Accord
Now let's break down the transmissions... The CL and TL type-s transmissions are the same ratio and pretty much gearing wise...
1st - 3.933
2nd - 2.478
3rd - 1.700
4th - 1.250
5th - 0.976
6th - 0.771
Reverse - 4.008
Final Drive - 3.286
They also both come with Helical LSD's. If using Hasport mounts one of the mounting holes will have to be drilled and tapped when using a 6MT CL-S tranny. Here is a bit of information about the CL-S transmission take from: http://hondanews.com/categories/781/releases/628
Torrance, Calif. - 01/04/2002
6-SPEED MANUAL TRANSMISSION (CL TYPE-S)
To enhance the 3.2 CL's already impressive credentials as a high performance luxury coupe, Acura offers the '03 CL Type-S with an optional close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission. This all-new transmission was designed to take advantage of the high power and torque of the CL engine and enable driving enthusiasts to select the perfectly matched gear ratio through a precise, short-throw shifter using a light and progressive clutch. Additionally, the transmission was designed to be lightweight to avoid weight-related performance loss and to ensure that the transmission would fit into the CL's existing engine compartment.
To meet these goals, CL engineers employed a variety of innovations:
* The lightweight transmission housing is constructed entirely of high-pressure-cast aluminum alloy. Gears are narrow and made from high strength steel. The result is a compact transmission that is about the same size as a comparable 5-speed manual and is 60 pounds lighter than the CL's Sequential SportShift automatic transmission.
* A close-ratio 6-speed helps provide quicker acceleration by keeping engine revs up and in the center of the CL engine's powerband.
* To reduce shift load and help ensure smooth, precise, effortless shifting, brass multi-cone synchronizers are used on first through fourth gear with a single-cone synchronizer for reverse. A large gear teeth contact area helps to reduce gear noise.
* The leather-covered shift lever operates a short-throw shift linkage via large diameter cable to provide quick action and precise shift feel.
* A reverse lock-out feature prevents the transmission from accidentally being shifted into reverse while the car is moving forward.
LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL
To help enhance traction during acceleration and reduce understeer in high cornering load situations, the CL Type-S with 6-speed manual transmission features a helical gear limited slip differential. This limited slip differential is specifically designed for the CL Type-S and is lighter, more compact and more durable than traditional clutch-type limited slip differentials.
Mounted within the ring gear, a set of helical gears continually monitors traction in each wheel, detects slippage and directs torque away from the slipping wheel and to the wheel with the surest footing. This allows enhanced traction not only when cornering, but also when negotiating slippery surfaces or surfaces where traction is uneven.
CLUTCH
The CL Type-S 6-speed manual transmission comes with a self-adjusting clutch to ensure consistent pedal height and feel throughout the service life of the clutch. This innovative clutch system automatically takes up the slack between the pressure plate and clutch disc and lowers release loads while maintaining consistent pressure for the diaphragm spring. The clutch disc is made of an all-new friction material that improves engagement feel as well as clutch longevity.
To reduce noise, cut down the transmission of engine vibration into the cabin and provide increased comfort during shifting, the CL Type-S model's 6-speed manual transmission has been equipped with a dual-mass flywheel. Rather than having a single conventional flywheel, this unit is divided into two flywheels with a torsion spring and viscous damper sandwiched between the two. This design reduces vibration and gear rattle, enhances the durability of the synchronizers and reduces the shift load.
The clutch includes a one-way delay orifice (check valve) located in the slave cylinder that restricts return fluid flow during rapid clutch engagement. This restriction of fluid reduces drive train shock and limits the torque load on transmission components. The result is a less abrupt engagement of the clutch during overly aggressive release.
Now onto the Accord transmissions. The AV6 MT is the most common transmission, of course there are two problems you should consider before picking one up. First, is the issue of no LSD. If you have ever owned a boosted Honda with no LSD you know what this will be like. Crazy torque steer and lots of traction loss. After looking into the LSD from the CL-S and TL-S transmissions, the LSD's are a direct swap into the AV6 transmission all the way down to not even having to replace the bearings. I gathered this information by comparing part numbers here...
http://www.hondapartscheap.com/
'03 Accord 6MT:
http://www.hondapartscheap.com/southbay/jsp/catimgs/14SDN0_M18.gif
2 41233-PYZ-000 GEAR, FINAL DRIVEN
3 41381-P7T-000 SPACER (46X80X1)
4 41382-P7T-000 SPACER (46X81X1)
5 41438-PYZ-000 SHIM A (81MM) (2.05)
-
5 41475-PYZ-000 SHIM AP (81MM) (3.16)
7 91005-PYZ-003 BEARING, TAPER (45X80X21)
8 91006-R08-003 BEARING, TAPER (45X81X18)
http://acuraautomotiveparts.org
'03 Acura 6MT CL-S:
http://acuraautomotiveparts.org/acura/jsp/mws/catimgs/13s3m0_m08.gif
1 41200-PYZ-003 DIFFERENTIAL ASSY., HELICAL LIMITED SLIP
2 41233-PYZ-000 GEAR, FINAL DRIVEN
3 41381-P7T-000 SPACER (46X80X1)
4 41382-P7T-000 SPACER (46X81X1)
5 41438-PYZ-000 SHIM A (81MM) (2.05)
-
5 41475-PYZ-000 SHIM AP (81MM) (3.16)
7 91005-PYZ-003 BEARING, TAPER (45X80X21)
8 91006-R08-003 BEARING, TAPER (45X81X18)
As you can see, these part numbers were copied from the two separate sites, and show that all the parts internally surrounding the differentials are the same. The only parts you should need to swap out are the differentials themselves. I personally have not done this before but all the numbers add up and it should be a easy direct swap that i DO plan on doing in the near future for my transmission. This route seems the most ideal because accord transmissions are A) quite a bit cheaper than the CL-S/TL-S transmissions. B) A lot easier to come considering only 3511 CL-S with MT were made and the TL-S's are somewhat rare as well, and C) If you are strapped for cash but want to get the swap completed you can put in the Accord transmission then swap in the CL-S LSD later on down the road. (the CL-S LSD can be had for around $800-$850 if you know the right people. ;) ).
With all of this out of the way, how you do your swap may depend on what transmission setup you use. If you use a ecu module which tricks an automatic ecu into thinking you are still running an auto tranny then you can just slap on the AV6 transmission and go, but if you are using a modified harness and a manual cl-s ecu then you will need to use a CL-S clutch housing along with CL-S flywheel and purchase the CL-S secondary crank angle sensor (Or you can drill and tap into the AV6 case if you feel capable).
Here is what you would need if you go the modified harness route and are using an AV6 transmission:
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/catimgs/13s3m0_m01.gif
001 21000-PYZ-305 CASE, CLUTCH
and
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/catimgs/13s3m0_m03.gif
013 37506-PGE-A12 SENSOR, CRANK
Although the Accord transmission may sound like a good thing to start with if your tight on cash and just want something to get your swap up and running keep this in mind that it may be a problem you have to face...
http://www.automotivearticles.com/123/article_258.shtml
Service Bulletin
© 2008 American Honda Motor Co., Inc. – All Rights Reserved ATB 38262 (0804) 1 of 3
CUSTOMER INFORMATION: The information in this bulletin is intended for use only by skilled technicians who have the proper tools, equipment,
and training to correctly and safely maintain your vehicle. These procedures should not be attempted by “do-it-yourselfers,” and you should not assume
this bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle has the condition described. To determine whether this information applies, contact an
authorized Honda automobile dealer.
April 12, 2008
08-020
Applies To: See VEHICLES AFFECTED
Transmission Grinds When Shifting Into 3rd Gear, Pops Out of 3rd Gear, or
Is Hard to Shift Into 3rd Gear
SYMPTOM
The 6-speed manual transmission grinds when shifting
into 3rd gear, pops out of 3rd gear, or is hard to shift
into 3rd gear.
NOTE: These symptoms can be intermittent and
sometimes more noticeable in colder climates.
PROBABLE CAUSE
The transmission has a faulty 3rd gear synchronizer or
3-4 shift sleeve.
CORRECTIVE ACTION
Replace the 3rd gear set.
VEHICLES AFFECTED
2003–07 Accord V6 with M/T: ALL
2008 Accord V6 with M/T 2-Door:
From VIN 1HGCS218.8A000001
thru 1HGCS218.8A003478
2006–07 Civic Si 2-Door: ALL
2008 Civic Si 2-Door:
From VIN 2HGFG215.8H700001
thru 2HGFG215.8H701973
2007 Civic Si 4-Door: ALL
2008 Civic Si 4-Door:
From VIN 2HGFA555.8H700001
thru 2HGFA555.8H702465
link to further discussion about it on v6p:
http://www.v6performance.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125807
Also, Adam(wolydotmatrix) found this information out regarding shifter cable/box setups with different transmissions.
Made somemore changes. Well I guess I fixed somethying overlooked during installation.
Complaint: my 1st 3rd 5th are on the bottom and 2nd 4th 6th and Rev are on top. (HHHHMMMMMM)
Cause: 03 CL-S trans with 03 Accord v6 MT shifter. The Shift-Arm on my trany locates the shift-arm pin oppisite the counterweight. The pin location on the Accord and newer TL's is on the same side as the counter weight. Therefore the shifter will pull when it should push. (making sense yet, I eventually made sense of shifting upward for reverse.)
Correction: (A) pull trans out, remove arm and relocate pin
(B) Leave trans in car, make a pin, install pin in correct location for Accord shifter.
Here is what I did
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3848.jpg
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3851.jpg
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3849.jpg
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3853.jpg
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3856.jpg
To recap, Not all shifter boxes will work with all the transmissions without small modification/rerouting. The arrows show where the outside cable must go depending on which shifter box you are using. The TL and Accord shifter boxes are the same in shift movement but the CL-S is different. All the transmissions can run either shifter box setup, you just may have to modify the cable route and make your own pin. The picture shown is an Accord (AV6) transmission with accord/tl shifter box and cables ran. If you were to run a cl-s shifter box with an accord transmission then you would need to run the outside cable where the green arrow is along with making your own pin as Adam has shown. He did the opposite setup. He is running a CL-S transmission with a Accord shifter box setup therefore had to run his cables as shown in the picture (where the yellow arrow is). If you don't do this then you will be shifting backwards in a way. Your first gear would be close to your handbrake and your second gear would be closer to the dash so you would be pushing the shifter into second gear rather than the traditional pulling into second.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/8295635/J%20stuff/shifterboxsetup.jpg
Hope this helps some people as it helped me. All i did was compile the information I have used/found into one big thread. Hopefully as people with more experience with the j series transmissions join we can get more concrete information pertaining to the results and performances of each transmission and setup.
There are three cars that came with manual transmissions that we can use on the pre-2008 j series motors that can be swapped into the older honda/acura chassis.
Here they are:
2003 Acura CL type-s
2004-2006 Acura TL
2007-2008 Acura TL type-s
2003-2007 Honda Accord
Now let's break down the transmissions... The CL and TL type-s transmissions are the same ratio and pretty much gearing wise...
1st - 3.933
2nd - 2.478
3rd - 1.700
4th - 1.250
5th - 0.976
6th - 0.771
Reverse - 4.008
Final Drive - 3.286
They also both come with Helical LSD's. If using Hasport mounts one of the mounting holes will have to be drilled and tapped when using a 6MT CL-S tranny. Here is a bit of information about the CL-S transmission take from: http://hondanews.com/categories/781/releases/628
Torrance, Calif. - 01/04/2002
6-SPEED MANUAL TRANSMISSION (CL TYPE-S)
To enhance the 3.2 CL's already impressive credentials as a high performance luxury coupe, Acura offers the '03 CL Type-S with an optional close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission. This all-new transmission was designed to take advantage of the high power and torque of the CL engine and enable driving enthusiasts to select the perfectly matched gear ratio through a precise, short-throw shifter using a light and progressive clutch. Additionally, the transmission was designed to be lightweight to avoid weight-related performance loss and to ensure that the transmission would fit into the CL's existing engine compartment.
To meet these goals, CL engineers employed a variety of innovations:
* The lightweight transmission housing is constructed entirely of high-pressure-cast aluminum alloy. Gears are narrow and made from high strength steel. The result is a compact transmission that is about the same size as a comparable 5-speed manual and is 60 pounds lighter than the CL's Sequential SportShift automatic transmission.
* A close-ratio 6-speed helps provide quicker acceleration by keeping engine revs up and in the center of the CL engine's powerband.
* To reduce shift load and help ensure smooth, precise, effortless shifting, brass multi-cone synchronizers are used on first through fourth gear with a single-cone synchronizer for reverse. A large gear teeth contact area helps to reduce gear noise.
* The leather-covered shift lever operates a short-throw shift linkage via large diameter cable to provide quick action and precise shift feel.
* A reverse lock-out feature prevents the transmission from accidentally being shifted into reverse while the car is moving forward.
LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL
To help enhance traction during acceleration and reduce understeer in high cornering load situations, the CL Type-S with 6-speed manual transmission features a helical gear limited slip differential. This limited slip differential is specifically designed for the CL Type-S and is lighter, more compact and more durable than traditional clutch-type limited slip differentials.
Mounted within the ring gear, a set of helical gears continually monitors traction in each wheel, detects slippage and directs torque away from the slipping wheel and to the wheel with the surest footing. This allows enhanced traction not only when cornering, but also when negotiating slippery surfaces or surfaces where traction is uneven.
CLUTCH
The CL Type-S 6-speed manual transmission comes with a self-adjusting clutch to ensure consistent pedal height and feel throughout the service life of the clutch. This innovative clutch system automatically takes up the slack between the pressure plate and clutch disc and lowers release loads while maintaining consistent pressure for the diaphragm spring. The clutch disc is made of an all-new friction material that improves engagement feel as well as clutch longevity.
To reduce noise, cut down the transmission of engine vibration into the cabin and provide increased comfort during shifting, the CL Type-S model's 6-speed manual transmission has been equipped with a dual-mass flywheel. Rather than having a single conventional flywheel, this unit is divided into two flywheels with a torsion spring and viscous damper sandwiched between the two. This design reduces vibration and gear rattle, enhances the durability of the synchronizers and reduces the shift load.
The clutch includes a one-way delay orifice (check valve) located in the slave cylinder that restricts return fluid flow during rapid clutch engagement. This restriction of fluid reduces drive train shock and limits the torque load on transmission components. The result is a less abrupt engagement of the clutch during overly aggressive release.
Now onto the Accord transmissions. The AV6 MT is the most common transmission, of course there are two problems you should consider before picking one up. First, is the issue of no LSD. If you have ever owned a boosted Honda with no LSD you know what this will be like. Crazy torque steer and lots of traction loss. After looking into the LSD from the CL-S and TL-S transmissions, the LSD's are a direct swap into the AV6 transmission all the way down to not even having to replace the bearings. I gathered this information by comparing part numbers here...
http://www.hondapartscheap.com/
'03 Accord 6MT:
http://www.hondapartscheap.com/southbay/jsp/catimgs/14SDN0_M18.gif
2 41233-PYZ-000 GEAR, FINAL DRIVEN
3 41381-P7T-000 SPACER (46X80X1)
4 41382-P7T-000 SPACER (46X81X1)
5 41438-PYZ-000 SHIM A (81MM) (2.05)
-
5 41475-PYZ-000 SHIM AP (81MM) (3.16)
7 91005-PYZ-003 BEARING, TAPER (45X80X21)
8 91006-R08-003 BEARING, TAPER (45X81X18)
http://acuraautomotiveparts.org
'03 Acura 6MT CL-S:
http://acuraautomotiveparts.org/acura/jsp/mws/catimgs/13s3m0_m08.gif
1 41200-PYZ-003 DIFFERENTIAL ASSY., HELICAL LIMITED SLIP
2 41233-PYZ-000 GEAR, FINAL DRIVEN
3 41381-P7T-000 SPACER (46X80X1)
4 41382-P7T-000 SPACER (46X81X1)
5 41438-PYZ-000 SHIM A (81MM) (2.05)
-
5 41475-PYZ-000 SHIM AP (81MM) (3.16)
7 91005-PYZ-003 BEARING, TAPER (45X80X21)
8 91006-R08-003 BEARING, TAPER (45X81X18)
As you can see, these part numbers were copied from the two separate sites, and show that all the parts internally surrounding the differentials are the same. The only parts you should need to swap out are the differentials themselves. I personally have not done this before but all the numbers add up and it should be a easy direct swap that i DO plan on doing in the near future for my transmission. This route seems the most ideal because accord transmissions are A) quite a bit cheaper than the CL-S/TL-S transmissions. B) A lot easier to come considering only 3511 CL-S with MT were made and the TL-S's are somewhat rare as well, and C) If you are strapped for cash but want to get the swap completed you can put in the Accord transmission then swap in the CL-S LSD later on down the road. (the CL-S LSD can be had for around $800-$850 if you know the right people. ;) ).
With all of this out of the way, how you do your swap may depend on what transmission setup you use. If you use a ecu module which tricks an automatic ecu into thinking you are still running an auto tranny then you can just slap on the AV6 transmission and go, but if you are using a modified harness and a manual cl-s ecu then you will need to use a CL-S clutch housing along with CL-S flywheel and purchase the CL-S secondary crank angle sensor (Or you can drill and tap into the AV6 case if you feel capable).
Here is what you would need if you go the modified harness route and are using an AV6 transmission:
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/catimgs/13s3m0_m01.gif
001 21000-PYZ-305 CASE, CLUTCH
and
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/jsp/catimgs/13s3m0_m03.gif
013 37506-PGE-A12 SENSOR, CRANK
Although the Accord transmission may sound like a good thing to start with if your tight on cash and just want something to get your swap up and running keep this in mind that it may be a problem you have to face...
http://www.automotivearticles.com/123/article_258.shtml
Service Bulletin
© 2008 American Honda Motor Co., Inc. – All Rights Reserved ATB 38262 (0804) 1 of 3
CUSTOMER INFORMATION: The information in this bulletin is intended for use only by skilled technicians who have the proper tools, equipment,
and training to correctly and safely maintain your vehicle. These procedures should not be attempted by “do-it-yourselfers,” and you should not assume
this bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle has the condition described. To determine whether this information applies, contact an
authorized Honda automobile dealer.
April 12, 2008
08-020
Applies To: See VEHICLES AFFECTED
Transmission Grinds When Shifting Into 3rd Gear, Pops Out of 3rd Gear, or
Is Hard to Shift Into 3rd Gear
SYMPTOM
The 6-speed manual transmission grinds when shifting
into 3rd gear, pops out of 3rd gear, or is hard to shift
into 3rd gear.
NOTE: These symptoms can be intermittent and
sometimes more noticeable in colder climates.
PROBABLE CAUSE
The transmission has a faulty 3rd gear synchronizer or
3-4 shift sleeve.
CORRECTIVE ACTION
Replace the 3rd gear set.
VEHICLES AFFECTED
2003–07 Accord V6 with M/T: ALL
2008 Accord V6 with M/T 2-Door:
From VIN 1HGCS218.8A000001
thru 1HGCS218.8A003478
2006–07 Civic Si 2-Door: ALL
2008 Civic Si 2-Door:
From VIN 2HGFG215.8H700001
thru 2HGFG215.8H701973
2007 Civic Si 4-Door: ALL
2008 Civic Si 4-Door:
From VIN 2HGFA555.8H700001
thru 2HGFA555.8H702465
link to further discussion about it on v6p:
http://www.v6performance.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125807
Also, Adam(wolydotmatrix) found this information out regarding shifter cable/box setups with different transmissions.
Made somemore changes. Well I guess I fixed somethying overlooked during installation.
Complaint: my 1st 3rd 5th are on the bottom and 2nd 4th 6th and Rev are on top. (HHHHMMMMMM)
Cause: 03 CL-S trans with 03 Accord v6 MT shifter. The Shift-Arm on my trany locates the shift-arm pin oppisite the counterweight. The pin location on the Accord and newer TL's is on the same side as the counter weight. Therefore the shifter will pull when it should push. (making sense yet, I eventually made sense of shifting upward for reverse.)
Correction: (A) pull trans out, remove arm and relocate pin
(B) Leave trans in car, make a pin, install pin in correct location for Accord shifter.
Here is what I did
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3848.jpg
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3851.jpg
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3849.jpg
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3853.jpg
http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/IMG_3856.jpg
To recap, Not all shifter boxes will work with all the transmissions without small modification/rerouting. The arrows show where the outside cable must go depending on which shifter box you are using. The TL and Accord shifter boxes are the same in shift movement but the CL-S is different. All the transmissions can run either shifter box setup, you just may have to modify the cable route and make your own pin. The picture shown is an Accord (AV6) transmission with accord/tl shifter box and cables ran. If you were to run a cl-s shifter box with an accord transmission then you would need to run the outside cable where the green arrow is along with making your own pin as Adam has shown. He did the opposite setup. He is running a CL-S transmission with a Accord shifter box setup therefore had to run his cables as shown in the picture (where the yellow arrow is). If you don't do this then you will be shifting backwards in a way. Your first gear would be close to your handbrake and your second gear would be closer to the dash so you would be pushing the shifter into second gear rather than the traditional pulling into second.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/8295635/J%20stuff/shifterboxsetup.jpg
Hope this helps some people as it helped me. All i did was compile the information I have used/found into one big thread. Hopefully as people with more experience with the j series transmissions join we can get more concrete information pertaining to the results and performances of each transmission and setup.