Fuel Pump not Priming...again

[H22Ej1]

I am running a J32A2 tls in my EG hatch with a 04 tl 6sp trans and using Dons harness, running off of a (edit for correctness) P8E TL ECU with the immobilizer removed. The only other wiring modifications that were done was the fuse box was relocated inside the cabin, the battery to the trunk, and the headlight harnesses ran under the fenders.

When I first hooked the harness up I the fuel pump would not prime and the check engine light stayed on. I monkeyed around checking a few things for a day or two and at one point the pump had primed when I ground out pin 8 on the main relay. A few days go by while I ignore the car and I turn the key one day and it primes fine.

It is okay for about a week or two while I work out other small unrelated issues. Then two days ago it goes back to not priming again. I know this sounds like a typical main relay issue but it is not. The relay works fine in my other EG hatch, and that cars relay will not prime the pump in my swapped car either.

The relay is not clicking 3 times as it should, and is not sending power to the pump. And again the check engine light stays on all the time.

At this point I don't know where to go from here. I have checked and double checked all of my work; to me it sounds like a ground problem, but I have removed and cleaned all of my grounds (passenger side engine, rear of engine, harness, and transmission drivers side)

Any help will be greatly appreciated...I just want to drive the damn thing.

[speedhybridz]

check your main relay ;)

[H22Ej1]

check paragraph 3.

The main relay worked in my other hatch. That cars main relay which is working did not work in the j32 hatch. The main relay isnt the culprit unfortunately

[RPM SYSTEMS]

it is a grounding issues with the main relay or the constant 12v hot has the problem .

[wolydotmatrix]

it is a grounding issues with the main relay or the constant 12v hot has the problem .

X2

Check to see if your getting ground to the relay from the ECM.

Double check all your grounds, engine and chasis.

[H22Ej1]

X2

Check to see if your getting ground to the relay from the ECM.

Double check all your grounds, engine and chasis.

How do I check that? My engine grounds are fine, pin 1 has constant 12v

[wolydotmatrix]

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/OdysseyFuelpumpRelay.gif

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q413/wolydotmatrix/FuelpumpRelay.gif

Upper is Ody and lower is Civic. Check to make sure the computer is supplying ground to the main relay. The ECM provides ground via the fuel pump control. (A15 on 1999 ODY ECM) In start and 3 sec prime as well as while the engine is running.

[H22Ej1]

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelayoperation/index.html

this is what I have been going off of.

As of now, only pin 8 the ecu ground, and pin 7 the fuel pump power are not acting as they should.

Pin 7 sees no voltage and pin 8 is not grounding when the key is in the on position.
EDIT: the main relay will only click once.

From the stock civic harness A7 controls the grounding of pin 8 on the main relay i believe. On Don's harness the wire coming out of the yellow jumper at that location was not fully attached to the wire came out. I put a jumper wire in between the two and checked for continuity. With it hooked back up I am still not getting it to prime.

If I am looking at the pictures right, A15 on the Oddy ECU should be applying ground to the Main relay correct?
EDIT 2: I should probably have read your post before asking another question. However I am using a 02-04 Oddy ECU iirc I will have to double check this.

Sorry for all the questions, but I am terrible with wiring and this is exactly what I wanted to avoid when doing this swap

[H22Ej1]

Apparently the ecu I am running is a p8e tl ecu. The seller I purchased from must have mixed them up and I wasn't up on the lingo when I bought it nearly a year ago.

Any more suggestions with this new info?

[H22Ej1]

Okay, there are no breaks between the fuel pump ground pin on the relay, and the fuel pump control pin in the ecu; yet the fuel pump still does not prime and the check engine light is still lit.

I replaced the P8E with the AEM Series 2 on a base calibration and the CEL went off but it still does not prime and the main relay isn't clicking.

Is there anything else the main relay or ecu needs to see to prime?

currently on the main relay:
Pin 1 is always hot
Pin 2 is always ground
Pin 3 is hot with key on
Pin 5 is hot with key on
Pin 7 is NOT hot during priming
Pin 8 is NOT grounded during priming

Voltage at all times with key on engine off on the fuel pump control wire is 0V....according to what ive read it should be 0V for 2-3sec whatever the duration, then 12V.

Where do I go from here :confused:

[3.2em1]

I know it sounds dumb but have you checked the fuses? If you blew the right fuse it will make it so your fuel pump won't kick on. Just a thought something I always forget it check when something doesn't work.

[H22Ej1]

yes the fuses are fine, thanks for the input

[StolenLegacy]

i might not be too much help but i had some problems with my main relay on my eg si, and i took the cover off and checked the board and i had to do some soldering but i got it up running again. sometimes the solder needs redone. its definitely worth a look.

[H22Ej1]

I've used a known good relay which yielded the same issue. As well as used the questionable relay in another hatch with 0 problems.

The relay is not the issue unfortunately.

[StolenLegacy]

ok.... can i make another stupid suggestion? lol
if you have a fuel cut off switch, make sure the switch is cool.
this same hatch i have, had a fuel cut off switch when i got it and i didnt even know. well the switch went bad or something because sometimes when i wanted to start the car the pump wouldnt prime n the main relay didnt click ether.... just a suggestion... these are the same problems i had when i bought this car 3 months ago. hacked wiring n all....
went to radio shack n got a switch n it fired up every time..... again....
just a suggestion. GOOD LUCK!

[H22Ej1]

I dont believe I have one, but I will check. Thanks.

[wolydotmatrix]

Did you ever figure out if the ECM is providing ground to the Main relay??

[H22Ej1]

I am getting a reading of 0V along that wire. According to what I've read, it should be 0V for 2-3 seconds and then jump to 12V. It never increases in voltage.

[H22Ej1]

anything else I should be checking?

In regards to the MIL why would it not even come on when I turn the key to the on position when using the AEM ECU?

With Don's harness how do I check for codes? With my TL ECU the light stays lit at all times.

[H22Ej1]

up. anyone? Don do you have any more insight?

[H22Ej1]

after not looking at if for awhile, yesterday I put the key in and turned it to the on position and the fuel pump primed. I immediately turned the key to the off position, removed the key, then re inserted it and turned it to the on position....the fuel pump didn't prime. I touched nothing other than the key, what could have changed in that 10 second window that prevented it from priming again?

[slammedej1]

I know it takes mine a while to re-prime after the first prime. If that makes any sence

[H22Ej1]

mine won't prime again though...a half hour later it didn't prime again

it did the same thing this morning

[friesm2000]

I know it takes mine a while to re-prime after the first prime. If that makes any sence

alot of domestics have that "no" repriming window, of like 10 seconds or so

[friesm2000]

I am getting a reading of 0V along that wire. According to what I've read, it should be 0V for 2-3 seconds and then jump to 12V. It never increases in voltage.

so have you been watching the voltages and such while operating the switch? (sounds like you might have, but just want to verify though)

anything else I should be checking?

In regards to the MIL why would it not even come on when I turn the key to the on position when using the AEM ECU?

With Don's harness how do I check for codes? With my TL ECU the light stays lit at all times.

:confused: best i can say is ask don, UNLESS you possibly want to add some wiring that might not be there

and if so, go to a junk yard, and still a car's obd2 port from under the dash, and wire it in, then use a scan tool

BUT next question though, i know you say a TL ecu, what year? and type-s or not? cause you do know it will throw a light for other missing modules on the network (like the abs/vsa module) (which is why you do not get a light more then likely with the ems, cause it's not looking for anything else)

[slammedej1]

alot of domestics have that "no" repriming window, of like 10 seconds or so

I dont own a domestic. I have a j32a2 94 civic

[RMXmitch]

Double check the pins in the strut tower conversion harness for looseness, corrosion, etc.

[H22Ej1]

so have you been watching the voltages and such while operating the switch? (sounds like you might have, but just want to verify though)



yes, the fuel pump wire from the ECU to the Main Relay remains at 0V when it wont prime. Since priming is so few and far between, I have no idea what it does when it primes.



:confused: best i can say is ask don, UNLESS you possibly want to add some wiring that might not be there

and if so, go to a junk yard, and still a car's obd2 port from under the dash, and wire it in, then use a scan tool

BUT next question though, i know you say a TL ecu, what year? and type-s or not? cause you do know it will throw a light for other missing modules on the network (like the abs/vsa module) (which is why you do not get a light more then likely with the ems, cause it's not looking for anything else)

I've been talking to Don, hes been a great help...I just don't have a lot of free time at the moment. I've got a list of things to review that he sent me...hopefully Ill have some spare time in the next few days to make some headway.

The TL ECU is non-type s P8E....the PGE is the type s ecu. With the AEM EMS the MIL won't even turn on then off with the key in the on position...is this normal?

Double check the pins in the strut tower conversion harness for looseness, corrosion, etc.

I didn't think the Strut tower harness side had anything to do with fuel. :confused:

[RMXmitch]

yes, the fuel pump wire from the ECU to the Main Relay remains at 0V when it wont prime. Since priming is so few and far between, I have no idea what it does when it primes.



I've been talking to Don, hes been a great help...I just don't have a lot of free time at the moment. I've got a list of things to review that he sent me...hopefully Ill have some spare time in the next few days to make some headway.

The TL ECU is non-type s P8E....the PGE is the type s ecu. With the AEM EMS the MIL won't even turn on then off with the key in the on position...is this normal?



I didn't think the Strut tower harness side had anything to do with fuel. :confused:


Atleast on my AEM unit, that is what powers the ecu.

Made a intermittent fuel priming issue spin my brain for a few days.

Note, my CEL has never lit since using the aem. not even at startup.

[H22Ej1]

okay that makes me feel better about that then...just to be sure you are referring to the two drivers side plugs correct?

[RMXmitch]

okay that makes me feel better about that then...just to be sure you are referring to the two drivers side plugs correct?

Correct, just the 'big' one to be exact. The small, 2 wire plug is just used for the starter signal wire.

Good Luck!

[friesm2000]

I dont own a domestic. I have a j32a2 94 civic

not saying that it can't happen on imports (normally they will just reprime without a delay), it just more prevalent on domestics though


yes, the fuel pump wire from the ECU to the Main Relay remains at 0V when it wont prime. Since priming is so few and far between, I have no idea what it does when it primes.



I've been talking to Don, hes been a great help...I just don't have a lot of free time at the moment. I've got a list of things to review that he sent me...hopefully Ill have some spare time in the next few days to make some headway.

The TL ECU is non-type s P8E....the PGE is the type s ecu. With the AEM EMS the MIL won't even turn on then off with the key in the on position...is this normal?



I didn't think the Strut tower harness side had anything to do with fuel. :confused:

when it is staying at 0v, the only time it should be at zero (and as long as the ignition is in the ON position)(or very close to it) is when the ecu is NOT requesting the fuel pump, otherwise it should be up near battery voltage (because it is not a complete circuit, so no current is flowing through; basically it should have battery voltage right up to the switch, which in this case is the ecu




another thing is are you getting power (it will probably be a little less then battery voltage due to resistence in the circuit) on B1 and B9 on the pcm (that is the switch power supply from the main relay, which also happens to supply the power to the pump's relay coil








basically i know you say it works in other car's but the relay may STILL be bad, with your setup, and the voltage it receives with the key on (and as mentioned before make sure to check the conversion's harness and such for loose pin's and such), is not enough to overcome the closing of the contacts for the pump's relay section
so the next thing i am wondering is, can you push start the car, and have that relay trip on (or take the start signal out of play, which might be providing enough power to turn on the relay, and once turned on the pcm is able to sustain the relay :ponder:


also as far as no check engine light, i would want to at least get one with the AEM, so you know when to check it for codes and such, and not have to do like random checks of it lol

[H22Ej1]

Correct, just the 'big' one to be exact. The small, 2 wire plug is just used for the starter signal wire.

Good Luck!

Plug looks fine to me all wires are snug. Even removed that bit of harness and hooked it up on my other eg; primed just fine (the oe harness side that is) on the 8 pin green/yellow of the main relay voltage bounces around low for about 2 seconds and then jumps to roughly 11.2 v and stays there with key on engine off. Iirc I should see ground for 2 sec when it is priming, and then a floating voltage after correct?

[H22Ej1]

not saying that it can't happen on imports (normally they will just reprime without a delay), it just more prevalent on domestics though



When the pump was priming correctly I had no delay window, I have never had a Honda with a priming delay.


when it is staying at 0v, the only time it should be at zero (and as long as the ignition is in the ON position)(or very close to it) is when the ecu is NOT requesting the fuel pump, otherwise it should be up near battery voltage (because it is not a complete circuit, so no current is flowing through; basically it should have battery voltage right up to the switch, which in this case is the ecu

from what I have read the green/yellow wire sees ground when the ecu requests power to the pump. The ground on the pgmfi no8 pin is what triggers the relay and sends power to the ecu. Every wire except that one and 7 which sends power to the pump are doing exactly what they should do


another thing is are you getting power (it will probably be a little less then battery voltage due to resistence in the circuit) on B1 and B9 on the pcm (that is the switch power supply from the main relay, which also happens to supply the power to the pump's relay coil
what is the relay coil you are referring to? The main relay is getting power when needed see above







basically i know you say it works in other car's but the relay may STILL be bad, with your setup, and the voltage it receives with the key on (and as mentioned before make sure to check the conversion's harness and such for loose pin's and such), is not enough to overcome the closing of the contacts for the pump's relay section
so the next thing i am wondering is, can you push start the car, and have that relay trip on (or take the start signal out of play, which might be providing enough power to turn on the relay, and once turned on the pcm is able to sustain the relay :ponder:


also as far as no check engine light, i would want to at least get one with the AEM, so you know when to check it for codes and such, and not have to do like random checks of it lol
the relay is fine, this is a plug and play ordeal one of dons harnesses and I don't believe I need some crazy super relay. I am not seeing the right voltage on the green/yellow as I understand it which is causing my issue The relay priming the pump doesn't require the starter signAl, it gets power on pin 3 or 5 with key on engine off I forget which.

[RPM SYSTEMS]

for everything that is going on with the car . have you tried to replace the ecu or try a different ecu . i just had someone have a bad computer and thought that the harness had a problem . try a different ecu if you have one . another reason i say this , if everything is working in the wiring then it has to go back to the ecu.

[RMXmitch]

Have you tried different ecu calibrations?

Just to double check the fuel prime settings, go to tools>configure outputs>scroll down to LS11

Here's a screenshot of mine:

http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad199/rmxmiotch/Untitled-1.jpg


If your settings are the same, like don said it does seem to be pointing to the ecu.

[H22Ej1]

it functions the exact same way with my AEM v2 standalone which is why I have been completely lost. where do the two green/yellow wires on the 8 pin of the efi relay go? one straight to the ecu and the other? I was thinking of depinning the g/y from the main relay plug and running my own wire but I wasn't sure if it runs into anything else along the way.

[RMXmitch]

it functions the exact same way with my AEM v2 standalone which is why I have been completely lost. where do the two green/yellow wires on the 8 pin of the efi relay go? one straight to the ecu and the other? I was thinking of depinning the g/y from the main relay plug and running my own wire but I wasn't sure if it runs into anything else along the way.


I believe the g/y wire is a pulse/switched ground. I believe if you were to ground that, the pump would run continuously when the key is on.

I know it worked that way on a k20 ek, when using the factory ecu (no kpro) that g/y wire had to be grounded for the car to run at all.

[H22Ej1]

thats how I understood it...but mine will jump to 11.2x v and sit there :confused:

I have also attempted to ground the wire to trip the relay and prime the pump; when I do this my multimeter reads 1.2x v and no priming occurs. Now i'm as dumb as they come when it comes to wiring but if I'm grounding that pin (the g/y is still hooked up and connected mind you) shouldn't that bish read 0.0v lol??

[H22Ej1]

would it be stupid to disconnect that entirely and connect a ground with a switch to the 8pin on the efi? not sure if that would work or not.

RMX mitch: I didnt see your fuel pump settings pic earlier; I will check it out tomorrow or friday and report back...I am just on AEM's standard calibration they make available however.

[RPM SYSTEMS]

if you cut the green/yellow wire and put a switch to ground . it should turn on the fuel pump and power to the injectors. now just make sure you set you settings in the AEM , that to cut the injectors themselves when hitting rev limit. normally the AEM will cut the ground to green/yellow for high rev cut . like i said if you do this just check over you rev settings.

[H22Ej1]

before I start messing with the factory wiring; any idea at what could be causing the power instead of ground condition or ideas where to look next?

[H22Ej1]

still in for an answer, but for the time being im going to try out the switch, between the new job and grad work :/

[H22Ej1]

she runs!!! didn't have to put in the switch either. Thanks for the help everyone. Only issue now is the speedo doesn't work. Any ideas on what to check?

[RPM SYSTEMS]

which ecu are you using the AEM or stock ecu?

[H22Ej1]

stock

[RPM SYSTEMS]

when you are driving does the car rev out?

[H22Ej1]

It has no muffler so I haven't tried yet. Purchasing a muffler tomorrow so I will reply back soon

[H22Ej1]

having a delay on the muffler scenario, and im not about to rev it up in my neighborhood without one. provided it revs up fine, what could be the culprit here.




EDIT it revs to 5500 then hits fuel cut. Isn't that a bit low for this ecu?