11.6 Automatic J32

[mhassett]

Finally got around to uploading some video's from the end of last summer. My best was 11.69 @ 116.9 at 5.5-6.5 psi. The turbo is way to big, I'm not seeing full boost till the top of 1st gear so the car doesn't start moving till past the 60 foot mark.

I am mainly surprised that the automatic trans is holding up well - my opinion is that the factory ECU makes them shift too soft giving them a bad name. With some small mods inside the trans and my controller running it the car will chirp 2nd and 3rd with slicks. 3-4 is soft though. I have an ignition cut set up during the 3-4 shift. The timing of this event needs dialed in still but I think it will keep the trans happy when the boost goes up.

Also, who else is running the AEM EMS? I would really like to see what kind of ignition timing you guys are running na. I tuned the car myself and am far from at expert - the stock base map was (in my opinion) very conservative as far as timing goes... Wondering how aggressive you guys are getting with timing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhOPUjtXFrM

[hondaboy4life]

Setup looks good. What throttle cable did you use when you flipped the intake manifold around...?

Also have any pictures of the turbo kit setup etc?

[mhassett]

Setup looks good. What throttle cable did you use when you flipped the intake manifold around...?

Also have any pictures of the turbo kit setup etc?

Thanks. The cable was actually from a company that makes street rod stuff. I just modified it to work on the Honda.

I will dig up some pics of the turbo set up. It wasn't a kit - I just used ebay headers and started cutting and welding from the headers on.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc144/mhassett2000/Stuff/IMG_4429.jpg

[nutnut]

You made your own controller? What mods did you do the tranny?

[slammedej1]

damn that is a big turbo on that thing.

[mhassett]

You made your own controller? What mods did you do the tranny?

Yeah, I didn't know what else to do. The car, na, with the stock ECU running the engine and trans would shift fine except if you went past say 75% throttle. Say you floored it from a stop, 1st to second would shift fine at redline but the car would not shift from 2nd to 3rd. It would bounce off the revlimiter till you let off then hit 3rd. Once in 3rd and past the downshift rpm you could floor it again and it would shift into 4th at the redline. Using tiptronic mode was no different. No codes at the time and I tried a base model ECU and a type-s ECU. Both did this.

Any other Auto swap people have this problem???

I knew I would be switching to the AEM EMS anyways and knew something would have to be done to control the transmission. So I built a controller myself. Its not perfect but does work really well. It controls the 3 shift solenoids and pressure valves based on your gear selection from the tiptronic shifter. Basically its how Tiptronic should work from the factory. Hard shifts instantly when you upshift.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc144/mhassett2000/IMG_3847.jpg

When I rebuilt the trans I opened up 3 passages slightly and messed with the accumulators. Nothing major at all - I wasnt totally sure what I was doing, but it shifts very hard. Like I said, chirps 2nd and 3rd with the slicks. 4th is just a little soft.

damn that is a big turbo on that thing.

It is too big. I first ran a J35 with a Holset HX35... I was using the AEM FIC and couldnt control timing. I was revving to 7000 or whatever the TYPE-S ecu cuts off at (7200 maybe?) and umm... well lol we were heading from my house to the track. I did a pull in 3rd and all the rods bent (oops). Didnt look like detonation when I pulled it apart. It was really weird - the wristpin section separated from the top of the pistons. So maybe the stroke of the J35 doesn't like rpm. I don't know what Odyssey ECU's fuel cut is?

Anyways, the HX35 needed rebuilt when I got it. I had to change the exhaust wheel and it never felt right. When the J32 went in, I had the 372 laying around and wanted to try it. The car now has a ebay 35r on it...

[hondaboy4life]

Ya turbo seems a bit big. Once the setup is dialed it should be able to dip into the 10's no problem.

[CarNut4Eva]

Yeah, I didn't know what else to do. The car, na, with the stock ECU running the engine and trans would shift fine except if you went past say 75% throttle. Say you floored it from a stop, 1st to second would shift fine at redline but the car would not shift from 2nd to 3rd. It would bounce off the revlimiter till you let off then hit 3rd. Once in 3rd and past the downshift rpm you could floor it again and it would shift into 4th at the redline. Using tiptronic mode was no different. No codes at the time and I tried a base model ECU and a type-s ECU. Both did this.

Any other Auto swap people have this problem???

I sure do, what causes this? Rips first ---> second, holds second until I let off the throttle. Then it shifts second ----> third and so on fine. NOTE: This only happends when throttle is past approx. 75%. Changed ATF fluid with OEM fluid. No change. However, it's a blast to drive and I get some recognition fron the hotrod crowd.

[slammedej1]

props to you. very nice setup. What kind of suspension are you running for drag? I am setting up my car at the moment(still building). I didnt know what brand you are running, the car looks like it launches really well. I have a the K-sport pro suspension for mine.

[RPM SYSTEMS]

dam i give you a lot of credit . the transmission computer is a great idea. the question i have is if you are trip-tronic / auto , why are you running a BOV? most auto cars that have boost there is no BOV in the system . but still what a great job . keep up the work.

[mhassett]

I sure do, what causes this? Rips first ---> second, holds second until I let off the throttle. Then it shifts second ----> third and so on fine. NOTE: This only happends when throttle is past approx. 75%. Changed ATF fluid with OEM fluid. No change. However, it's a blast to drive and I get some recognition fron the hotrod crowd.

I would still really like to understand why our cars did this. Maybe we should make another thread to see who else had this problem and see if it was solved. Other than running a controller.

props to you. very nice setup. What kind of suspension are you running for drag? I am setting up my car at the moment(still building). I didnt know what brand you are running, the car looks like it launches really well. I have a the K-sport pro suspension for mine.

Actually I have 10 year old Autozone shocks and skunk2 coilovers haha. I need to change them - the coilovers are all the way up and I would still like the car to sit higher. I do have a traction bar and it always seemed to help. When the car had the B series in I had a few 1.78 60's and so far with the J my best was a 1.82 60'.

When I had the Holset on, boost was really responsive but then it would spin the tires through 1st on 24.5x8x15 slicks (high 1.8x 60's). So then I threw the S372 on along with going to 24.5x9x13 slicks and did the low 1.8's but I think a smaller turbo could get that down quite abit. Atleast I hope. Low 1.7s would be really nice. With the S372 I would sit at the line trying to build boost and still only leave with 2.4 ish pounds of boost and not see 5 pounds till near 6000 in 1st. Also keep in mind (in my opinion) if you are a stick car I would always keep an eye on my 330' times. With my B series they were almost more important than the 60' times. I don't know how to put it, but like if you spin bad in 1st, shift and bog down a little in second?

dam i give you a lot of credit . the transmission computer is a great idea. the question i have is if you are trip-tronic / auto , why are you running a BOV? most auto cars that have boost there is no BOV in the system . but still what a great job . keep up the work.

Thanks Don, I finally got the car running good with the B then decided to go J but I am really happy so far. Its nice that the car is consistent at the track with the auto.

Again, when I was first gathering info on the swap, I called you and you honestly must've spent a half hour on the phone with me - I didnt expect a shop to spend that much time on the phone and be that helpful. Especially when the caller is saying they want to try a turbo auto lol (most shops would probably just be like bring the car and give us a bunch of money or just hangup). Thanks again, at the time I didn't realize things like the manual's having the different sensors and what harnesses are usable, etc. You saved me alot of time and money with that call. I am near Cleveland Ohio and would love to check out the shop sometime if you guys have any meets this summer.

Oh the bov... That is true, I probably don't really need it. At the time I was just reusing some piping from the B setup and threw it on there. I took it off but then sometimes would hear a little compressor surge (probably not significant) and threw it back on with the ebay 35r.

Here is a video of the car with the holset spinning in 1st leaving from idle. You can here how hard the trans shifts into 2nd and 3rd... but also how soft it goes into 4th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oGpvqZJFhY

Graph of boost on the 11.6 run (guess it didnt see 6 psi till redline in 1st)

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc144/mhassett2000/1169Log.jpg

[jswappedsedan]

this set up is sick and that piece u made for the tranny is sick....way to dive head first into something like that...A+ from me

[nutnut]

It controls the 3 shift solenoids and pressure valves based on your gear selection from the tiptronic shifter.

Are you handling the linear solenoids in an ON/OFF fashion, or do you skip them and the "shifting between gears" completely and go to the next gear solenoid combination directly?

[mhassett]

Are you handling the linear solenoids in an ON/OFF fashion, or do you skip them and the "shifting between gears" completely and go to the next gear solenoid combination directly?

For the linear solenoids I was pulse width modulating them, but its a simple routine... It is more of an on/off for now. I would like to read the tps or map sensor and attempt to lower the line pressure at lower throttle so light throttle shifting is less harsh.

The "shifting between gears" is a whole other issue. I wrote the in between shift patterns into the code BUT I do not know how long the Honda designers want you to be in this state??? I tried using them at different intervals like 50ms to 200ms and really dont understand what the between shift patterns do?

The thing I dont like about my setup is the flaring between shifts - I will post a video. I recently picked up a 2001 CL Type-S automatic (whole car) for cheap (timing belt broke needed a head). Its running now and I want to put it on the dyno and log all transmission inputs to see how the stock ecu shifts at full throttle. My setup shifts harder but the stock computer seems to shift faster... and without flare... So less chance of slipping. But I think the ECU cuts power to the engine during the window when the trans is between gears so you dont notice it and/or flaring is reduced by the between shift patterns. I really want to understand this...

[nutnut]

The "shifting between gears" is a whole other issue. I wrote the in between shift patterns into the code BUT I do not know how long the Honda designers want you to be in this state??? I tried using them at different intervals like 50ms to 200ms and really dont understand what the between shift patterns do?

The thing I dont like about my setup is the flaring between shifts - I will post a video. I recently picked up a 2001 CL Type-S automatic (whole car) for cheap (timing belt broke needed a head). Its running now and I want to put it on the dyno and log all transmission inputs to see how the stock ecu shifts at full throttle. My setup shifts harder but the stock computer seems to shift faster... and without flare... So less chance of slipping. But I think the ECU cuts power to the engine during the window when the trans is between gears so you dont notice it and/or flaring is reduced by the between shift patterns. I really want to understand this...

I think that the actual shift is done by the linear solenoids during the "shifting between", and the duration is either determined by rpm sensors on the shafts - until the rpm ratio is that of the intended gear, or depending on some other inputs, or hardcoded. The speed of the shift is probably controlled by the engine load and the power cut maybe too. Going to the shifting state ahead of time in preparation for the shift and waiting some (hardcoded?) time for fluid flowup through the other linear solenoid could be the cause of the slow reaction of the ECU, but the actual shift being faster. The pressure switches can come to play here also, but I'm more inclined to think that those are there just to prevent binding between 2 and 3, as 1+2 and 3+4 are mounted back-to back, and maybe it is not mechanically possible to bind those.

My tranny is in pretty bad state and various aspects of the shifting are showing off quite isolated - when shifting 1->2 at light to none throttle it feels like engine braking for a moment, like if the 1 was too slow to disengage and was in during the power cut (unless it is some other issue lol, but I'm running Amsoil Type-F and it probably still holds the clutch at pressure where Z1 would slip already, also the passages could be clogged somewhat, and it became more noticeable after the switch the Type-F, so I think the power cut is there and the timing is hardcoded with Z1 and tranny in perfect condition in mind).
At higher throttle it either doesn't cut the power or it is unnoticeable because of inertia and the shift being faster.

[mhassett]

I think that the actual shift is done by the linear solenoids during the "shifting between", and the duration is either determined by rpm sensors on the shafts - until the rpm ratio is that of the intended gear, or depending on some other inputs, or hardcoded. The speed of the shift is probably controlled by the engine load and the power cut maybe too. Going to the shifting state ahead of time in preparation for the shift and waiting some (hardcoded?) time for fluid flowup through the other linear solenoid could be the cause of the slow reaction of the ECU, but the actual shift being faster. The pressure switches can come to play here also, but I'm more inclined to think that those are there just to prevent binding between 2 and 3, as 1+2 and 3+4 are mounted back-to back, and maybe it is not mechanically possible to bind those.

My tranny is in pretty bad state and various aspects of the shifting are showing off quite isolated - when shifting 1->2 at light to none throttle it feels like engine braking for a moment, like if the 1 was too slow to disengage and was in during the power cut (unless it is some other issue lol, but I'm running Amsoil Type-F and it probably still holds the clutch at pressure where Z1 would slip already, also the passages could be clogged somewhat, and it became more noticeable after the switch the Type-F, so I think the power cut is there and the timing is hardcoded with Z1 and tranny in perfect condition in mind).
At higher throttle it either doesn't cut the power or it is unnoticeable because of inertia and the shift being faster.

I didn't think about trying to send the "shift between" patterns before the actual next gear pattern - that's interesting. I was just assuming that the pressure switches were merely for simple feedback rather than event timing. Again, as soon as I come up with a way to datalog on my Cl Type-S auto (100% stock car) I found a used 8 channel pc logger or if I just wire up the AEM EMS to power rpm and use extra channels to monitor trans functions... I should be able to see how Honda does it. Then we can all emulate off that.

The 1st to 2nd issue you are having is kinda weird. When I rebuilt my trans (and from driving my car) - I believe 2-3 3-4 4-5 is all done by disengaging the first gear, then engaging the next gear. That's why my car flares between shifts. BUT, on the 1-2 shift - 1st stays engaged WHILE 2nd is engaged... (notice that's the only shift that's instant with no flare in my videos) then for 2-3 > 1st stays on, 2nd releases while 3rd engages... 1st stays on etc... Not sure how this helps you though, just trying to give you some info. I am a tad rusty since its winter lol, but I think that's how it works. I do remember for sure that 1st gear has 2 sets of clutches inside the trans. A 1st set and 1st hold set. I think 1st hold is just for D1 position though.

Also, and you probably have already tried this, but when you unbolt the shift solenoids there are metal screens - might be worth a try so see if they are just dirty? I could see slipping but binding is weird. I could see binding in any other shift besides 1-2...

[nutnut]

I didn't think about trying to send the "shift between" patterns before the actual next gear pattern - that's interesting. I was just assuming that the pressure switches were merely for simple feedback rather than event timing. Again, as soon as I come up with a way to datalog on my Cl Type-S auto (100% stock car) I found a used 8 channel pc logger or if I just wire up the AEM EMS to power rpm and use extra channels to monitor trans functions... I should be able to see how Honda does it. Then we can all emulate off that.

I plan to build a circuit with an ATmega microcontroller (I have some little experience with those from my previous job), to monitor the sensors and ECU activities at first (including engine sensors and fuel injection, my 98 Accord has cable throttle and distributor and the only power cut I can think of the ECU can do is fuel cut), and then to stay between the ECU and the tranny and "refactor" the tranny control.
To me it seems like the ECU has lots of stuff about the tranny hardcoded instead of learning it from the available sensors and when the tranny starts getting out of spec it starts mishandling it, getting into spiral that ends with the tranny blowing out.
For example the point where the clutches dis/engage in each gear and the time to get there at certain conditions can be learned and adjusted over time, giving the potential for as fast and perfect shifts as possible.

The 1st to 2nd issue you are having is kinda weird. When I rebuilt my trans (and from driving my car) - I believe 2-3 3-4 4-5 is all done by disengaging the first gear, then engaging the next gear. That's why my car flares between shifts. BUT, on the 1-2 shift - 1st stays engaged WHILE 2nd is engaged... (notice that's the only shift that's instant with no flare in my videos) then for 2-3 > 1st stays on, 2nd releases while 3rd engages... 1st stays on etc... Not sure how this helps you though, just trying to give you some info. I am a tad rusty since its winter lol, but I think that's how it works. I do remember for sure that 1st gear has 2 sets of clutches inside the trans. A 1st set and 1st hold set. I think 1st hold is just for D1 position though.

It is happening also on 3-4, but not on 2-3, possibly thanks to the pressure switches feedback.
I haven't seen the tranny internals myself, I just downloaded the 98 Accord ESM (http://www.spoonertuner.com/manuals), and a lot are just my assumptions :-) From the descriptions in there it seems like only the given gear clutch is engaged though.

Also, and you probably have already tried this, but when you unbolt the shift solenoids there are metal screens - might be worth a try so see if they are just dirty? I could see slipping but binding is weird. I could see binding in any other shift besides 1-2...

I haven't yet but I'm aware of this, I'm going to clean those (and also the rpm sensors) when I spare some time to hack on the car, possibly this weekend.

[gfrg88]

What ATF are you using?? a lot of people on Azine have noticed that Redline atf helps out with our trannies.. a lot of people say it shifts a lot harder.. might wanna look into that... SICK set up btw!!! two thumbs up :)

[vectorsolid]

Subscribed for more "auto" information. :)

[nutnut]

I cleaned the rpm sensors, the combined lockup/shift solenoid assembly and the lower one of the single shift solenoids, the upper one is blocked by the bellhousing. The only considerably dirty thing was the lockup/shift assembly. I did only a short trip to test it, but it seems that 1->2 is now behaving identically to 3->4 and both can be tuned by adjusting the linear solenoids (before I had to adjust it so that both 2 and 4 were mildly unsatisfactory, each in the other direction).

I haven't found an ATmega that would have both CAN and USB so I'm exploring Microchip PICs now. What chip are you using in your controller?

[dornon13]

What all is involved with flipping the intake manifold 180° like you did?

[gfrg88]

they have some kits for sale to be able to rotate the IM.. can't remember the site right off the top of my head.. I'll look for it and post it

[dornon13]

Great! Thanks!

[gfrg88]

Here you go!!!

http://www.funco-motorsports.com/acura_honda_v6.htm

[dornon13]

Sorry I am not seeing it.

[gfrg88]

Sorry, wrong site :p

Here's the other link.. just scroll down and you should see it
http://www.swperformanceandfab.com/PRODUCT_LINE.html

[dornon13]

$450!!! they crazy...I did run across another site like that, that wanted $200 for that "modification"

I am curious what all is involved to do this on your own.

[gfrg88]

$450!!! they crazy...I did run across another site like that, that wanted $200 for that "modification"

I am curious what all is involved to do this on your own.

Idk.. why exactly do you want it rotated?? just curious.. You could just have one fully custom made prolly for that price from Paul (nva-v6) at v6performance....

[dornon13]

Because I want to mount the engine longitudinally which will put the throttle body into the firewall.

If i have to make a custom manifold i will but plenty of people have flipped the manifold, it cant be that difficult.

[TLdream]

Idk.. why exactly do you want it rotated?? just curious.. You could just have one fully custom made prolly for that price from Paul (nva-v6) at v6performance....

No, you cant. It would be close to double that price, or more. I have talked to paul about it before. Good luck getting him to do one, if your on a budget.

[00crv6?]

the manifolds on the early v6's are easy to flip. so long as you dont need egr and power steering.
heres what you do.
first remove all manifolds upper and lower two.

next, remove and discard the power steering system, most importantly the pump and both brackets(mostly the rear bracket is in the way).

next, fill in the egr ports at the front head and associated manifold. probably with a j-b weld type of product.

once the filler is cured, reinstall your lower manifolds in the desired position and viola your upper is now facing the correct way for your aplication.

i just mocked one up on an old engine we have lying around, it only took a few minutes. there is obviously much more to it though, but the physical flipping of the manifold is super easy, all the bolt holes are there as if it has an aplication, or is for ease of manufacture.

that being said, i dont know if the newer block designs from 05 and up are the same.

[dornon13]

You are awesome dude, thanks for all of your help so far. I suspected exactly as you said. I do not need the power steering pump and i will have to remove the egr system anyways :)

[gfrg88]

No, you cant. It would be close to double that price, or more. I have talked to paul about it before. Good luck getting him to do one, if your on a budget.

Meh, I guess when you know the guy it's a better price...



Did I read that right?? longitudinal??? more info on this please!!!!

[dornon13]

Meh, I guess when you know the guy it's a better price...



Did I read that right?? longitudinal??? more info on this please!!!!


I will have a build thread as it becomes more of a reality. I am in the research phase right now.

[dornon13]

easy peasy :)

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/189396_567823051673_78201535_32263565_7215505_n.jp g

[00crv6?]

nice

[Chibi]

what size injectors are u running on? and have you dyno it?

[mhassett]

what size injectors are u running on? and have you dyno it?

Just running DSM 450's since I had them laying around. I cant remember the duty cycle off hand?

I really didnt dyno with the big turbo, I had tuned the car on a Holset HX35 at 5-6 psi - then at the end of the season tried the big turbo. I just touched up the tune at the track from datalogs. That was on the 11.6 run. Big turbo was too laggy.

Then I threw a GT35r on... tuned it at 5-6 psi and made 330 ish whp on a Mustang dyno. Somehow at only 330 whp the car ran 11.3x. Basically same peak power of the big turbo but much better powerband.

Back on the dyno I tried upping the boost to 8-9 psi. The car picked up... something like 80 ft-lbs of torque but did not carry it above 4500. Car made the same whp.

My best guess was that the turbo manifold setup was choking the engine. I made a new turbo header setup from scratch and ditched the old ones that were based off ebay headers.

Hopefully this will allow me to carry the torque from the extra boost and pick up .3 seconds. Just waiting for the weather to break.

The new headers "feel" great on the street. Turbo is more responsive, exhaust tone completely changed, and off the wastegate (4-5 psi) the car does really fun 3rd gear burnouts lol. The auto seems to be holding together still.

[Chibi]

Just running DSM 450's since I had them laying around. I cant remember the duty cycle off hand?

I really didnt dyno with the big turbo, I had tuned the car on a Holset HX35 at 5-6 psi - then at the end of the season tried the big turbo. I just touched up the tune at the track from datalogs. That was on the 11.6 run. Big turbo was too laggy.

Then I threw a GT35r on... tuned it at 5-6 psi and made 330 ish whp on a Mustang dyno. Somehow at only 330 whp the car ran 11.3x. Basically same peak power of the big turbo but much better powerband.

Back on the dyno I tried upping the boost to 8-9 psi. The car picked up... something like 80 ft-lbs of torque but did not carry it above 4500. Car made the same whp.

My best guess was that the turbo manifold setup was choking the engine. I made a new turbo header setup from scratch and ditched the old ones that were based off ebay headers.

Hopefully this will allow me to carry the torque from the extra boost and pick up .3 seconds. Just waiting for the weather to break.

The new headers "feel" great on the street. Turbo is more responsive, exhaust tone completely changed, and off the wastegate (4-5 psi) the car does really fun 3rd gear burnouts lol. The auto seems to be holding together still.

nice..i'm going turbo...and i got a ebay turbo from my friend, he bought it new on ebay..so idk what it is..no name..only say .70ar on it...and i'm getting all my turbo parts..so once i collect all my parts imma head to one of the shop and have them custom make a manifold..i'm trying to boost as much as i can trying to run on e85....what size wastegate are you running? can u take a picture of your oil lines? also, with the gt35r when did your boost start coming in at?